Floating timber flooring and unsympathetic Owner and tenants | Hard floors and tough decisions | Flat Chat Forum: Your Questions Answered




A A A

You must be registered and logged in to reply to posts or post new topics. Click on "How to Use This Forum" for simple instructions on how to get on board. NB: Please do not use your real name or email address as your screen name - if you do it will be changed to something less insecure.

Avatar

Please consider registering
Guest

Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Floating timber flooring and unsympathetic Owner and tenants
Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
02/01/2013 - 2:43 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi All,

I live in a cozy 8 unit strata block that was built in the early 70’s. All things considered the first four and a half years of ownership have been relatively incident free and reasonably blissful. That is until February of 2012 when the long term tenants in the lot directly above mine moved out and the owners took the opportunity to install floating timber flooring. New tenants moved in at the end of February (a young family) and my nightmare formally begun.

After two weeks of pounding stomping and running/jumping on the new floorboards accompanied with frequent loud door slamming which began at 5-6am and continued almost uninterrupted until 12.30-2am, I had had enough. Enquiries with my other neighbors adjoining the offending unit indicated that they also had been badly affected by the incessant noises and also were at wits end. Attempts to discuss the issues with our new neighbors were met with a shrug and being told that they were not making any noise.

My two other neighbors and I decided to send an email to our strata manager to ask them to intervene. After several weeks of trying to track the owner down (the owner was overseas), contact between the strata manager and the owner of the offending unit was established. What followed was a brief exchange of emails where the strata manager pressed the issue with the noise and the timber floor and the owner’s protests that “he did not need approval to install the floor” and “I have an acoustic certificate from the installer and it meets the BCA standards”. Despite pointing out that the certificate was issued 3 years prior to the install of his floor and that the acoustic underlay mentioned in the certificate was different and thicker than the underlay on their invoice, the owner stuck to his guns. He did say he would talk to his new tenants.

Fast forward 6 months of no change in the incessant noise and email exchanges between me, the strata manager and the unit owner, and nothing had been achieved except that cordial relations were now badly degraded. It was at this point that I realized that despite some early promising signs, relations were at a low ebb and I would need to approach the CTTT for a resolution.

 Prior to this I consulted with a Strata lawyer at some considerable expense. He recommended that I take both the owner to the CTTT for a breach of by-law 14 and s117(a) and the tenants to the CTTT for breaches of by-law 1 and s117(a).. Interestingly the owner had not informed the strata manager of the new tenant’s details and it took a strongly worded letter from the strata manager to extract the information.

I decided to take the owner to the CTTT for by-lay 14 initially and follow up with the tenants if that did not bring any relief. Mediation with the owner’s representative and me was a farce with much waving of the now infamous acoustic report in evidence and protests that we were harassing his poor innocent tenants.

A follow-up application to the adjudicator is now in progress with submissions containing detailed noise notes, stat decs and letters from witnesses.

My question is how long will it take for the adjudicator to make an order (submissions closed a month ago) and if appealed how long does it take to go to the Tribunal. Does anyone have a database of similar cases that I can look at should this need to go to the tribunal?

Any additional advice on how to deal with the distressing issue would be greatly appreciated

 

Cheers

 

andyj

Avatar
JimmyT
Admin
Forum Posts: 4496
Member Since:
06/01/2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
02/01/2013 - 5:31 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

Have a look at this collection of rulings HERE but if you are looking for something absolute and definitive, don't hold your breath ... this is strata ... in NSW..

Your selfish upstairs neighbour can wave all the acoustic reports they like but there is only one factor that is truly significant ... is the noise transmitted to your apartment excessive and disturbing?

That can be harder to prove than whether or not the upstairs neighbour installed the floor to whatever standard or not, but if you can prove it - and it can be done - it gives them nowhere to go but to re-install the flooring properly or re-lay carpet.

You might get a result at the CTTT - you may not ... it's all a bit of a lucky dip there.

Personally, I'd like to see an Owners Corp get together and drag one of these greedy, ignorant nincompoops who think they have the right to enhance the value of their apartment to the detriment of their neighbours' to the Supreme Court where damages can be claimed.

I'd also like to see flooring sales people having to re-lay the flooring or the carpet at their own expense if they can't prove that they have warned an apartment owner adequately about the dangers of improperly insulated timber floor.  Maybe flooring installers should be required to sign a copy of a building's by-laws to prove that they and their customers have both read them.

As it is, some flooring sales people are worse than used car salesmen - and I'm talking about the kind of used cars that run on snake oil. When I installed timber flooring (and it cost three times as much as the cheapest option to make it fully compliant) I had flooring salesmen tell me not to worry about the "boring old farts" on ECs as there was nothing they could do anyway.

(sigh)

As far as timings go this is what the CTTT website says: "You can expect the matter to be finalised within 3 months after lodging your application with the CTTT."

What does 'finalised' mean? Is it when the adjudicator rules or when your appeal is heard? And there will be an appeal - rest assured. Adjudication purely on paper is such an unsatisfactory process that it's likely to be scrapped in the near future.  But for now all it means is that one party or the other - whoever loses - will feel that their side of the story hasn't been heard properly so they will appeal to a hearing anyway.

So while you are waiting for the adjudication to drop from the heavens, gather as much evidence of noise as you can - including recordings, stat decs from friends and neighbours, and diary entries - to present at the hearing that you will inevitably have to attend.

Avatar
excathedra
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 101
Member Since:
03/01/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
02/01/2013 - 6:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I am fortunate enough to live in a top floor unit, carpeted throughout except for kitchen, laundry and bathrooms.  I have no wish for a wooden floor - my 1940s childhood on the Far North Coast left me with a perception that wooden floors meant you couldn't afford lino.  I think it is outrageous that the marketers of wooden floors claim that their insulation meets the standards of 'Strata' and wave various numerical readings to support their claims.  The only requirement of 'Strata' is the subjective one, expressed in the Model By-law (unless an individual Scheme has introduced its own by-law to supersede it), "that all floor space within the lot is covered or otherwise treated to an extent sufficient to prevent the transmission from the floor space of noise likely to disturb the peaceful enjoyment of the owner or occupier of another lot."  In other words, never mind the decibels, it's the effect on others' lives that matters.  I just wish this could be enshrined more explicitly in the law, and that various tribunals would be more ready to support it.  Indeed, the ACCC could do worse than review possible misleading behaviour on the part of the wooden floor industry.

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
03/01/2013 - 10:39 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi All,

 

The noise generated by the timber floor is only a part of the problem. The tenants have a disturbing habit of slamming external and internal doors and windows as well. To add to this recently the kitchen taps have started to make a loud squeak and the tenant tikes to rinse each item turning the taps on and off repeatedly for 30 min at a time around meal times. Last night the combined noises only stopped at 2am.. Up again at 5am

My haven has become a nightmare.... ;-(

Oh well I guess one problem at a time

Can I get strata to talk to the owner or would this be a pointless exercise?

 

Cheers

andyj

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
15/01/2013 - 12:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi All,

The CTTT Adjudicator ruled today in my favor. The Owners have been ordered to comply with by-law 14 of sch 1 of the SSMA 1996

 

Now all I need to do is wait for the inevitable appeal ;-)

 

Thanks to all for their advise and support

 

Cheers

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
07/02/2013 - 5:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi Jimmy and Flat chatters

The owner of the Lot upstairs has not appealed to date and the appeal period of 3 weeks has passed. They have however sent me an email saying that they don't believe that their floor is at fault and that they will not be doing anything to rectify the problem. They kindly asked me to suggest a reasonable way to address the "root problem".

The adjudicators orders were pretty clear in that they said by-law 14 was clearly breached and that the underlay used was insufficient to prevent the transmission of noise from the floor space. The adjudicator as expected did not specify carpeted flooring or otherwise

Would it be unreasonable of me to suggest a solution such as "Please call Precision Flooring and ask for a quote on the 15mm Regupol Underlay" or would I likely be painting myself into a corner here. I am tempted to ask for quality carpet and underlay, but fear I may be pushing my luck here

Pls advise

Avatar
scotlandx
StrataGuru
Members

Full Members

Moderators
Forum Posts: 703
Member Since:
02/02/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
08/02/2013 - 4:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Your neighbour sounds like a real gem, not.  They can send you all the emails they like, but there is an order requiring them to do something, and they haven't appealed that order.

If it were me, I wouldn't enter into any correspondence with the owner other than to remind them of the order and that there are penalties for failing to comply with the order of an adjudicator, and that you will pursue the matter if they don't meet the terms of the order.

The 'root problem' is that the underlay is insufficient, as set out in the adjudicator's orders.  Whether installing Regupol or carpet with underlay will be sufficient to solve your issue can probably only be answered by an expert on matters like that.  I am not sure if you have consulted anyone on that and it may be a good idea if you do.  The Regupol is good, but it won't completely do away with all noise.  So it depends on what you want.  Perhaps you need to ask for what you really want after seeking expert advice, and go from there.  But don't let your neighbour dictate the terms, they are the ones with an order against them, not you.

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
08/02/2013 - 5:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Thanks scotlandx,

Your advice is very, very much appreciated and makes perfect sense. I will get some advice as suggested. All I want is the owner above to return the acoustic characteristics of his lot to that I was experiencing before the wooden nightmare was installed. I have been putting up with constant booming and banging noises till 2am since Feb last year and I am getting a bit desperate for a good nights sleep. I am a bit worried that the owner upstairs will do a half a***ed job and say its resolved or use his current strategy of asking the tenants to tippy toe for a few months till, in his mind it has blown over. It would be nice if he could just see that the installer gave him bad advice and he got a dud install and just fix it once and for all. Had the roles been reversed this is exactly what I would have done.

 

Again thanks for what is sensible advice. I was going to ask my strata lawyer but he charges like lawyers do for everything, including asking how things are going :-)

Cheers

andyj

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
25/02/2013 - 3:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi All,

Got some bad news today. The Owner upstairs has appealed and the tribunal has accepted it for a "directions hearing". The adjudicators orders were made on the 11 Jan and the appeal was lodged on the 8th of February so I am assuming that the appeal has been accepted out of time. Can I argue that the appeal is late and should not be accepted. Also what is a "directions hearing". I have just let my strata lawyer go assuming that the next step was penalties, but it looks like this one will be fought to the last breath. Has anyone been through this before and if so what advice would you offer.

Would it be wise to get my strata lawyer on to the case again??

Sincerely, one despondent strata victim

Avatar
excathedra
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 101
Member Since:
03/01/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
25/02/2013 - 5:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I think andyj needs that strata lawyer to go through the grounds of the appeal and represent him (or at least guide him on representing himself if legal representation is not allowed).  The installer of the floor will have a lot riding on the appeal, and you can bet your bottom dollar he had advice from a lawyer or some other sort of professional advocate.

Avatar
scotlandx
StrataGuru
Members

Full Members

Moderators
Forum Posts: 703
Member Since:
02/02/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
26/02/2013 - 12:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

A directions hearing is where the parties go in front of the judge/adjudicator and the judge/adjudicator discusses the progress of the appeal and give directions to the parties about how they should proceed.  So the substance of the case isn't heard/considered.

If an appeal is lodged out of time the person has to give reasons why.  As it has been accepted you may have to presume either that it was lodged on time or reasons were given, bearing in mind this was over the summer break.

It sounds like you are really being put through the mill.  I strongly recommend that you continue to use your strata lawyer, you have come this far.  There is no guarantee of what the outcome will be but it does sound like you have a good case.

Did you consult an acoustics expert?

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
26/02/2013 - 1:51 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi scotlandx, excathedra,

Thanks for the posts. I am yet to get the paperwork from the CTTT. I am a little peeved with the CTTT as I am trying to plan a holiday away from the noise pollution at home and have been ringing them every Monday them since the 21day appeal point passed. Since the orders were posted on 14 Jan (Orders issued on 11 Jan, I received by Mail on 15 Jan) that the appeal period would have lapsed on 4 Feb so a 8 Feb submission would be out of time. The Owners rep should have got the orders on the same day. The Owner himself emailed me on 22 Jan asking for a compromise agreement, but I took scotlandx's fine advice (among others) and didn't reply. There have since been accusations that we are harassing the tenants on racial grounds (yes in writing) even though the only time I have spoke to them was last year asking them to stop building IKEA furniture on the shiny new timber floor at 11.30pm on a week night. Even the owner indicated that I has spoken to them once and "this harassment shall stop". Really guys this should saga would get better ratings that most prime time TV shows.

I have called Precision Flooring and spoken to one of the acoustical representative's. He suggested that the best flooring is carpet with quality underlay. He said Regupol was one of the best underlays for timber floors. He suggested that I get the owner to give them a call. to discuss. I have already some months ago put the owner onto Regupol as a good underlay. I wont repeat the return language in this fine forum.

My strata solicitor is not local to the city so costs will be incurred with travel. I wish the owner had taken my offer to go halves in the remedy costs now.

If a directions hearing isn't to address the substance of the matter, does that mean that his "appeal" unlikely to overturn the adjudicators orders and simply outline remedy process or am I dreaming here. (I think I am dreaming here)

I am still keeping noise logs, and have the original stat decs from neighbors and visitors but I get the feeling this will drag on for some time.

Any advice on preparing for the face to face at the tribunal would be appreciated. I am gathering witnesses to come as well.

Cheers all. Hope this goes the way of the good guys

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
27/02/2013 - 10:06 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi All,

 

A wee update. I now have the paperwork from the CTTT.

Reason for late appeal. The owner is overseas, has been for the last 5 years, is very busy at their job and has difficulty communicating with people in Australia due to the big time difference.. Oddly they have been using a Sydney based representative up until now for attendance at mediation, and have managed to get their submission to the adjudicator in time previously. Why would this be grounds to accept a extension of time to appeal??. They also want more time to establish their case (shouldn't they have done that before adjudication??)

Reason for appeal

They "Strongly believe and have written evidence and a visual inspection" that their floor complies with by law 14 and the adjudicator is in error.

Why does the CTTT accept this drivel??

Avatar
scotlandx
StrataGuru
Members

Full Members

Moderators
Forum Posts: 703
Member Since:
02/02/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
27/02/2013 - 1:51 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I suggest you not worry about whether the owner had reasonable grounds for an extension of time, the fact is he has been given time, and on its face the reasons he gave are not bad ones.  In relation to the owner's reasons - they can strongly believe that the world is flat, that doesn't make it so, and a visual inspection doesn't mean anything.  The CTTT doesn't knock an application back because the reasons given are stupid.

Assuming you want to see this through (I would) then you need to concentrate on putting your case.  From what you have said it sounds like you have a good case, but strange things can happen at the CTTT, so make sure you have as much to back you up as possible.  When I suggested that you consult an acoustics expert I meant an acoustics expert, rather than a floor company.  I think somewhere else on this forum Jimmy gave some details of people who do this?

You mentioned that your solicitor has to travel, can you use one who is actually more local to cut costs?

Re a directions hearing - that is just a preliminary to the hearing of the appeal, it lays the groundwork for the actual appeal. 

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
27/02/2013 - 3:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

scotty x

Got a Costs disclosure coming from one of the site sponsors. Sounds like its going to cost a fair bit. They suggested an acoustic report, but this may go against me as well

Jimmy do you have a link to acoustic engineers. A reputable one near Parramatta would be good.

Looks like its life time to c..p on me from a great height. Pity the CTTT is a no costs jurisdiction. Could have done renovations/paid down the mortgage with the proceeds instead

Do I need the lawyer at the directions hearing as well or just the formal hearing. Owner from hell is phoning in from overseas for directions hearing

I'm going for a walk now so I can use some language that is not fit for publication!! 

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
07/03/2013 - 1:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

scotlandx, Jimmy T and Whale

Thanks for your valuable advice on the forum. I am preparing my case for the upcoming appeal. I was wondering if you could provide "academic" comment on the following.

I note that an "automatic right of appeal to the Tribunal exists against any order of an Adjudicator made under ss 138-162" which means that an appeal can be lodged because of an error of law or disagreement with any aspect of an Adjudicators decision.

I note the appeal notice should set out the grounds or reasons for disagreement. The general rule (the prima facie principle that judgments that are presumed to be correct) appears that a judgment of an Adjudicator is presumed to be correct. 

Therefore the grounds for appeal should clearly set out the errors or issues which the appellant wishes to argue. A grounds for appeal or a combination of grounds for appeal would therefore need to establish that the Adjudicators orders are plainly wrong, harmful, prejudicial or unreasonable if allowed to stand unrevoked or unamended.

In preparing arguments for disallowing admission of evidence of the appellant

I understand that the tribunal can conduct the hearing in the following manners

As an "appeal in the classic sense" where the tribunal is limited to examining errors of law or finding of facts by the Adjudicator (arguments no additional material submitted)

An appeal by way of rehearing based on the evidence provided to the Adjudicator examining whether the adjudicator fell into legal, factual or discretionary error, or

An appeal by way of rehearing based on the evidence provided to the Adjudicator, supplemented by such further evidence as the appellate tribunal admits, where the further evidence includes:

1) evidence in relation to fresh matters that occurred after the decision of the Adjudicator

2) in relation to matters that occurred prior to the decision of the Adjudicator where the evidence satisfies:

        Pre trial unavailability even with the exercise of reasonable diligence:

        It must be appropriately credible and:

        If it was adducted before the Adjudicator an opposite verdict would

        have been likely.

I am likely to incur frightening costs in the pursuit of this matter, therefore an attempt at recovering costs will be sought if possible.

What does it mean where the applicants appeal is frivolous, vexatious , misconceived or lacking in substance. Can someone provide some examples that I may use as "academic food" in getting my arguments together

The more I can prepare before engaging the legal folk the more I can save in costs:

All and any comment will read with gratitude.

 

Kind Regards.

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
17/03/2013 - 10:57 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Jimmy, scotlandx and others

The owners of the lot above me have lost thier appeal. Many thanks to all for your advise and support. Hopefully this whole mess will be now be addressed without the need to seek penalties.

andyj

Avatar
scotlandx
StrataGuru
Members

Full Members

Moderators
Forum Posts: 703
Member Since:
02/02/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
17/03/2013 - 9:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Yay! That is such good news! Well done.

I hope you don't have to endure any more recalcitrance, going by what you have told us, who knows. But keep us posted and congratulations.

Avatar
andyj
NSW
Flat(chat)Mate
Members
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
31/12/2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
13/05/2013 - 12:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Hi All,

I am a bit surprised but the Owner of the upstairs unit has managed to get his appeal against the orders of the adjudicator to fix his incessantly noisy floor reheard.

As I mentioned a few months ago he appealed, We appeared at the hearing, he didn't and the appeal was dismissed. He was supposed to appear by telephone. A few weeks after the appeal was dismissed I booked a long overseas holiday to relax after this harrowing saga. Just before I left lodged an application for penalties for non compliance.

While I was overseas I got an email from my neighbor saying she had received a notice from the CTTT regarding the penalties application as she had on all previous correspondence from the CTTT regarding application's regarding the floor issue. She had previously put in submissions supporting my application to have the owner fix his timber floor installation.

Unknown to us all was that the owner of the offending unit had written to the CTTT saying that because he was to appear by phone he was expecting the CTTT to call him. The CTTT responded that because he was overseas he was it was his duty to call. He then argued that he was not told this and given contact details. The CTTT invited him to ask for a rehearing that was approved and scheduled for 3 weeks later. He was asked to provide the Tribunal and myself with documentation to support his case by 24 April.

I didn't receive any of this documentation of notice of this hearing as I was overseas. Neither did any of the other parties that got my application for adjudicators orders, the subsequent appeal that was dismissed and my application for penalties. The offending owner did not send me any documentation to support his new appeal either, which would have caused me to enquire what was happening.

The CTT held the appeal directions hearing on 1 May in my absence and was adjourned.

The appellant (noisy floorboards) has been ordered to supply evidence for grounds of appeal by 3 June (extensions allowed) to CTTT and myself

I need to supply paperwork including witness statements by 3 July supporting my penalties application

He gets to respond to my statements by 17 July and the hearing is on 26 July. I also have to provide him access for expert reports with 48 hrs. notice, but he doesn't need to allow me the same access.

 

Suffice to say I am a bit peeved by all of this and the CTTT seems soft on applications that are logged out of time or stalling because someone is overseas

 

andyj

Avatar
JimmyT
Admin
Forum Posts: 4496
Member Since:
06/01/2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
13/05/2013 - 3:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I am going to take a slightly out of character punt here and say that the CTTT may be taking a belt and braces approach to this so that your selfish upstairs neighbour can't come back and claim they were treated unfairly under the law, triggering another appeal to your District Court.

This can often be the impression given when a judge or adjudicator appears to be doing everything they can to favour one side of a legal case when in fact what they are actually doing is closing every possible appeal loophole to prevent someone whom is clearly an a**hole from using the law to avoid observing their social and legal responsibilities.

Someone I know very well recently had a defamation case against them thrown out with all costs awarded against the paintiff.  But if you read all the pages except the one with the judgement on it, you would think that the opposite was going to happen because very possible ground for defamation was examined in detail.

However, it turned out the judge was just opening doors so he could slam them shut. It's different but, I think, similar.

Forum Timezone: Australia/Sydney

Most Users Ever Online: 518

Currently Online: dingo
28 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

kiwipaul: 613

struggler: 459

Austman: 304

Billen Ben: 232

Millie: 203

Kangaroo: 168

considerate band fair: 167

Cosmo: 166

FlatChatFan: 147

daphne diaphanous: 137

Newest Members:

bhawesh

David Solomon

Tim349VicPl

Mariner

aylwardgame

reddant

danih

slicendice

Maun Warrior

Rayjen

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 46

Topics: 4280

Posts: 20243

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 241

Members: 4873

Moderators: 4

Admins: 1

Administrators: JimmyT

Moderators: Whale, Sir Humphrey, scotlandx, Lady Penelope