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This topic contains 22 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Sir Humphrey 3 months ago.

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  • #37691
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    questiontime10
    Flatchatter

    A new by-law has been introduced banning children under 16 from using the lap pool.

    I (and many others) believe this is unreasonable and discriminatory.

    No minutes have been provided where this was proposed or carried. As long as kids are supervised or can swim without supervision, then I don’t see why they can’t use the pool. How can we challenge this?

    • This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Jimmy-T.
    #37697
    Jimmy-T
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

    When you say there were no minutes, was there a proper general meeting with an agenda?

    Also, the model by-laws say this:

    8   Children playing on common property

    (1)  Any child for whom an owner or occupier of a lot is responsible may play on any area of the common property that is designated by the owners corporation for that purpose but may only use an area designated for swimming while under adult supervision.

    So is this ban on all kids, regardless of whether or not they are being supervised?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Jimmy-T.
    #37706
    Avatar
    questiontime10
    Flatchatter
    Chat-starter

    They’ve held general meetings, but I never saw it on any agenda or subsequent minutes, and despite multiple requests, they haven’t provided any minutes that outlines how this new by-law was proposed and carried.

    And yes, it’s a ban on all children under the age of 16 from using the lap pool, regardless if they’re supervised or not. They’re saying it’s a Work Health and Safety issue – but haven’t specified what issue that is.

    Seems to me someone just doesn’t want kids in the pool…Would appreciate knowing what our next steps should be.

    #37708
    Sir Humphrey
    Sir Humphrey
    Strataguru

    Here is an idea:

    1) Make sure you have your request for evidence of a registered by-law, minutes of a meeting and a proper notice of that meeting in writing.

    2) Get together with the parents or carers of other children and organise to supervise your children using the pool responsibly on a regular schedule. Make sure you are compliant with the model by-law quoted by JT, even if it does not apply to your site. It shows what the legislators regarded as reasonable.

    3) See what happens. Perhaps nothing.

    4) If you are issued with a notice to comply with the by-law, reiterate your request, in writing, for evidence that the by-law exists and is valid.

    5) If no evidence is forthcoming, continue the above cycle.

    6) If it turns out the by-law was adopted by a properly constituted meeting and registered, investigate further whether it can be thrown out by the Tribunal as harsh and unreasonable and substituted with the model by-law, which the Tribunal should accept as reasonable, or attempt to get the same outcome by putting a motion to a general meeting.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Sir Humphrey.
    #37710
    Avatar
    questiontime10
    Flatchatter
    Chat-starter

    I like your response, Sir Humphrey.

    Slight problem – they have also concurrently introduced biometric access (replacing fob key access) to the fitness centre/indoor pool – under the same shady process. Due to outrage since these new policies have been released, they’ve now said residents who don’t consent to providing their fingerprints can gain access to the fitness centre/indoor pool by contacting Security and getting them to let you in. I don’t consent to my fingerprints being collected (they don’t even have a biometric collection policy yet) so I doubt Security will let us in. This whole biometrics thing is worthy of another post entirely…

    #37712
    Sir Humphrey
    Sir Humphrey
    Strataguru

    What are they storing in there? The crown jewels?

    Perhaps you could get around it if one of a coalition of parents and carers did register their fingerprint and that person lets the rest of you through before the door closes. If you end up at the Tribunal, you can add in unreasonable restriction of access to the common property – requiring biometric data for access without evidence of adequate data security.

    #37713
    Jimmy-T
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

    questiontime10 wrote

    I don’t consent to my fingerprints being collected (they don’t even have a biometric collection policy yet) so I doubt Security will let us in.

    That’s not what they’re saying.  But a little organised disruption might be in order.  A large number of you could individually ask for access every five minutes or so.

    As far as the by-laws go, as Sir Humphrey said, there is a process …

    • There should have been an agenda with both the pool restrictions and the security listed as motions.
    • Then there should have been a meeting at which 75 per cent of votes were in favour.
    • Then the minutes should have been distributed within 14 days.
    • Meanwhile, the by-laws should have been registered with the Registrar-General and have no effect until they are.

    FYI the Australian Privacy Act says that an “entity that holds personal information must take reasonable steps to protect the information from misuseinterference and loss, as well as unauthorised accessmodification or disclosure.”  So you may be on to something there.

    But first, see if there is a paper trail, as described above, then work out what your next step will be from that. But I think that at the very least keeping supervised kids out of the pool is pretty much guaranteed to fall over at NCAT if challenged.

    Keeping them out of the pool with no adult on hand (pardon the pun)  will be a lot easier.

    #37714
    Avatar
    questiontime10
    Flatchatter
    Chat-starter

    That’s not what they’re saying.  But a little organised disruption might be in order.  A large number of you could individually ask for access every five minutes or so.

    Sorry, to be clear, I don’t think Security will escort me in with my child as children are now not allowed into the fitness centre/pool. I can’t imagine them turning a blind eye to that. But yes, I’m sure they would allow me in on my own as they’ve committed to that in writing.

    Re the proper agenda/minute process mentioned above, where exactly is this referenced?

    Really appreciate the time both of you have taken to respond and outline suggested actions. Thank you very much.

    #37716
    Sir Humphrey
    Sir Humphrey
    Strataguru

    Once somebody is in (say a parent without a child) can they open the door from the inside to let others through (say another parent with several children in tow)?

    As this is a lap-pool associated with a gym, I can see how an argument might be made that this is a pool for serious training and not a recreational pool or designed for children. However, I would counter that with 1) Some children could be training seriously, eg. for school or other competitions, 2) Children’s water play is important for learning water safety and could lead to a sporting and general fitness interest in swimming, 3) Children are residents too, with a right to use and enjoyment of the common property.

    A fear from serious users of a training pool might be that they won’t be able to use it because it is full of kids. A reasonable solution would be to have designated, child-friendly times for recreational use and other times designated for training, perhaps with a booking system.

    #37717
    Avatar
    questiontime10
    Flatchatter
    Chat-starter

    The pool has been around for years, and it’s generally not that busy. There’s previously been a combination of adults doing laps, kids doing laps as they’re on school swim teams, and kids learning/practising their swimming.

    I have personally not seen kids just splashing around, having fun, as it’s a pretty cold pool!

    #37719
    Sir Humphrey
    Sir Humphrey
    Strataguru

    Well, there you go. Examples of children using the pool for highly virtuous purposes. I can imagine rhetorical flourishes in mediation about the risk of unwittingly thwarting a child who could one day have become our next Great Aussie Sporting Legend Olympian Swimming Champion. Clearly banning kids from the pool is ‘unAustralian’! [To be delivered in one’s best Roy and HG voice!]

    #37721
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    questiontime10
    Flatchatter
    Chat-starter

    You’re good value, Sir Humphrey!

    #37742
    Avatar
    questiontime10
    Flatchatter
    Chat-starter

    Jimmy-T, could you please let me know where this process is referenced?

    • There should have been an agenda with both the pool restrictions and the security listed as motions.
    • Then there should have been a meeting at which 75 per cent of votes were in favour.
    • Then the minutes should have been distributed within 14 days.
    • Meanwhile, the by-laws should have been registered with the Registrar-General and have no effect until they are

    They’re saying that’s not how it works.

    #37747
    Jimmy-T
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

    That’s how by-laws are created under the terms of the Strata Schemes Management Act.  Does your committee operate under its own set of laws?

    Have they explained how they (whoever “they” are) think it works?  Do they think they can just issue edicts and ban residents from areas of common property?

    Even if there is a catch-all by-law that says access to the pool could be controlled by decisions of the committee, as and when required, those decision would still have to be on a strata committee agenda, voted on and minuted.

    So, what do your by-laws say, exactly? (please, the exact wording)

    If there is no by-law regarding access to the pool, then the committee and/or managers are going way beyond their remit.

    If there is a by-law, then it should establish the rules in writing so that everyone knows what they are.

    #37749
    Avatar
    questiontime10
    Flatchatter
    Chat-starter

    This is the specific line relating to children and the indoor pool:

    • Children under the age of 16 years are not permitted in the lap pool.

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