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  • #8014
    Biologynerd
    Flatchatter

      Hi all,

      Am hoping for some advice.  My partner and I bought our first apartment in October last year, part of the reason being that we really wanted to get a dog and knew we were unlikely to ever find a pet friendly rental.

      When we bought, we checked the by-laws for this building, they are the default option A, i.e. you can keep a pet if you get permission, and permission can’t be withheld unreasonably.

      I have a few questions:

      1) Is it unusual that so far (6 months in) we have heard nothing official from the owners’ corporation about meetings and so on?  We have chatted to a neighbour or two but the best we can find out is ‘there’ll be an AGM around July sometime’.  How do we get involved?  We’d like to have a say in a few things around the building, but also obviously we are interested because we are thinking about the pet issue as well

      2) Is it our best option to just write a letter to the owner’s corporation requesting permission to get a pet?  Many people have suggested we need to say what type of dog, it’s size, age, behaviour etc – given that we are asking permission to GET this dog, obviously we don’t have it yet, so do we just describe the dog we are hoping to get??

      3) Given that the neighbour we spoke to told us that one of the executive committee is totally against dogs, and will likely refuse our request, where would that leave us?  Who is to say whether his refusal is ‘reasonable’?  Is this something we could fight, or would this be a final answer with no recourse?  Could we then take the issue to the AGM?  Which brings us back to the question of how to have some say when the AGM does come around…

      Thanks for any advice – we are finding the whole process very mysterious and frustrating, which is hard, because we have been waiting a long time to get this dog and we are trying to go about it the right way (i.e. ignoring the advice of friends to just get the puppy and then ignore any angry letters etc…!)!

      Cheers

      Alex

    Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 22 total)
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    • #15081
      Jimmy-T
      Keymaster

        Biologynerd said:

        I have a few questions:
        1) Is it unusual that so far (6 months in) we have heard nothing official from the owners’ corporation about meetings and so on?  

        It’s not all that unusual – some buildings hand over most of their day-to-day running to their Strata Managers or just don’t have Executive Committee meetings that often.  What would be unusual would be if they were having EC meetings but not telling anyone.  Write to the secretary or strata manager and ask when the next EC meeting is as you’d like to attend (which you are entitled to do).

        2) Is it our best option to just write a letter to the owner’s corporation requesting permission to get a pet?  Many people have suggested we need to say what type of dog, it’s size, age, behaviour etc – given that we are asking permission to GET this dog, obviously we don’t have it yet, so do we just describe the dog we are hoping to get??

        You have to write to the EC to get the permission under the by-laws.  When you’re choosing your dog, do some research into what’s the best size and breed. For instance Jack Russells can be very noisy as they will defend your home which means barking at every person who walks past your door. Bichon Frisse are small and cute but they can be annoying because they are neurotic and bark all day. Some breeds are just too aggressive to be allowed in any kind of community living. Others may need more exercise than you have time to provide.

        THIS website has some very good advice and suggestions of suitable breeds,you could also look at THIS one for a lot of suggestions, and THIS one has some good comments from dog owners. Once you have chosen your breed, make the reason you chose the dog – quiet, friendly small … whatever – part of your application. Remember, there are other by-laws relating to noise, nuisance and health concerns that could see a badly behaved dog evicted … so choose carefully.  Also bear in mind how active and noisy your neighbours are – is you have lift lobby chatters next door, don’t get a dog that’s going to growl and bark at them.

        3) Given that the neighbour we spoke to told us that one of the executive committee is totally against dogs, and will likely refuse our request, where would that leave us?  

        That’s just one vote.  But make it as easy as possible for all the other members to say yes.

        Who is to say whether his refusal is ‘reasonable’?  

        Well, one person can’t decide – it’s the committee.  Also the definition of ‘unreasonable’ is critical.  If they refuse, then you can ask them to provide you with the criteria that they used when making the decision.  If they don’t have a valid or logical reason for refusing the dog, they are breaching the by-law. If they don’t have criteria, then how can they make a reasonable decision. If they don’t give you an answer, then that is withholding permission – just choose the right breed and you’ll be fine.

        Is this something we could fight, or would this be a final answer with no recourse?

        Sure you can fight it – on the grounds stated above. The by-laws say permission can’t be unreasonably refused … that allows you a lot of leeway.  If you’ve done your homework and chosen a quiet, well-behaved breed, they have no reason to refuse.  But the way to fight it may be to force their hand by getting the dog (see below).

        Could we then take the issue to the AGM?  Which brings us back to the question of how to have some say when the AGM does come around.

        The AGM is the one meeting a year where everybody gets to have a say – and the AGM supersedes Executive Committee decisions so yes, by all means … if it comes to that.

         we are trying to go about it the right way (i.e. ignoring the advice of friends to just get the puppy and then ignore any angry letters etc…!)!

        Do your homework, write a letter asking permission and saying the breed you have chosen and why, wait a reasonable time for a response (five weeks) if you hear nothing, get the dog and let them come after you.  But don’t ignore the angry letters – tell them to issue you with a Notice To Comply and you will happily go with them to mediation and adjudication because you are in the right.

        The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
        #15090

        Hi Bioligynerd, you should have a noticeboard in your building so find it and read it, the minutes of your EC Meetings should be posted there so you can get some info on the goings on in your building. As Jimmy says the only way to get permission for keeping an animal is to write to the EC asking permission and giving description of your animal. Do this before the EC meeting if your intention is to attend.Then either request permission through your strata manager to add to agenda and or permission to speak at the next ECM. Alternatively you can wait till the AGM. We always approve dogs in our building, we love animals, but it is on the proviso that the animal is kept on leash at all times it is on CP and that if the animal becomes a nuisance in any way (noise, aggressive behaviour etc) we will send a notice of breach of bylaw and a notice to comply. We have had more than a few notices sent out! So as JT suggests, be thorough in researching the breed you choose, because if the dog is a nuisance it can still be removed from the building with or without the permission.

        Best of Luck,

        CBF

        #15163
        Biologynerd
        Flatchatter
        Chat-starter

          Hi,

          Thanks for your replies.

          We do have a noticeboard but it only has notes about taking rubbish bins out, and fire safety stuff on it.

          We have drafted a letter that we plan to send off this week – FYI we want to get a miniature schnauzer – have emphasized the small size, non-shedding coat, friendly nature, our plans to train and socialise the dog and carry it through common areas.

          Fingers crossed!

          One thing though re: the executive committee – you mentioned it is just one guy’s vote – but we were told that there are only 3 people on the EC (this anti-dog guy is obviously one of them), and since there are only 8 units in the block, the EC must decide unanimously to pass these requests – therefore if this one guy says no, it could be the decider.  Does that sound like it could be correct?

          If so, we will find out about the AGM and take the issue up there anyway…

          Cheers

          #15167
          Jimmy-T
          Keymaster

            Biologynerd said:

            One thing though re: the executive committee – you mentioned it is just one guy's vote – but we were told that there are only 3 people on the EC (this anti-dog guy is obviously one of them), and since there are only 8 units in the block, the EC must decide unanimously to pass these requests – therefore if this one guy says no, it could be the decider.  Does that sound like it could be correct?

            No – that's not right at all.  There has to be a majority. I wonder, also, if your application is the time to ask them what criteria they use  to “reasonably” refuse permission. It could make them think twice about saying no … or it could just irritate them.  Maybe you should find out who they are and have a chat first.

            The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
            #15194
            Freddie
            Flatchatter

              Hi,
              We are experiencing a very similar problem with approval of a small dog.
              We have the default option (A) By-law for pets (i.e. you must apply to the strata to keep a pet and the strata can’t withhold approval unreasonably)
              We have recently applied (via letter) to our Executive Committee to keep a dog and it was rejected due to ‘noise concerns’ and no further information was provided.
              Before applying we researched possible breed and have chosen a breed considered one of the best for apartment living due to their size, tendency not to bark. We included references to websites which confirm this about the breed. We also explained that we will not allow our dog on any common grounds and our plans for training to ensure we have a well behaved dog.
              We replied to the Executive Committee’s refusal asking for the opportunity to reconsider our application and allow us the chance to discuss further with as we believe they have been ‘unreasonable’ in their denial; as we had taken the time to select a breed which is suited to apartment living and stated that will we undertake a high level of training and care, we also offered in addition to use training devices such as ‘anti barking collars’ to ensure there is minimal noise.
              But despite our request, we have not received any response or further information regarding their rejection.
              Given all of this, we were looking at lodging with the CTTT for mediation and resolving prior to getting the dog. But after reading your last post it suggests we could also consider going ahead and getting the dog and make the owners committee pursue us through issuing a notice of non-compliance. Once we receive the non-compliance notice we could lodge with the CTTT that the Owners Committee had ‘unreasonably’ denied our request.
              However we are concerned that the CTTT might take a less favourable view of our situation if we go ahead with our dog purchase and knowingly disregard the Owners Committee original denial of our request for a dog.
               
              Any advice would be much appreciated.

              #15195
              Jimmy-T
              Keymaster

                I would go for the mediation first, just to be on the safe side. Point out that there are other by-laws that would allow them to remove the dog if it turned out to be noisy. The EC can’t assume there will be a problem because not all breeds are the same and you’ve tried to find one that won’t be noisy. This is a clear case of the EC not reading their own by-laws and then not liking what they see when they do. But you can argue that you bought your apartment on the basis that the building allowed pets so they are the ones in breach, not you.

                The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                #15203
                Anonymous

                  Having lived in apartments for most of my adult life and having had the misfortune to live next to dog owners in different complexes on many occasions, I do think it is very unfair on neighbours.

                   

                  I have lived next to yappers and the ones that hoooowwwwl when the owner leaves and they keep it up all day till the owner returns.

                   

                  I have lived next to owners and their dogs that make the carpets and the common areas stink of wet dog and urine. Owners that wash their pets in the common grassed area next to the clotheslines with a hose on a Saturday wash day.

                   

                  I have lived next to a family that started with one dog and ended up with three dogs in a 2 bedroom apartment all barking and climbing up the walls at all hours.

                   

                  The smell of unkempt animals seeping out into common areas from the homes of pet owners and the noise will drive you mad.

                   

                  Dogs have no place in apartment complexes. There is no such thing as a quiet and unobtrusive dog for the simple reason that dogs often mirror their owners behaviours and the owners of dogs that wish to inflict them on others in such dense living are usually selfish, self-entitled and arrogant people with scant regard for the community that they want to force to share in dog ownership often against their will.

                   

                  If you want a dog buy a house and inflict the noise and mess on your adjacent neighbours not in an apartment complex where you can destroy the quality of life for a very large number of people simultaneously.

                  #15204
                  Jimmy-T
                  Keymaster

                    I hear your pain, Sloan, but all of the problems you mention can be dealt with under by-laws that have nothing to with permission for pets specifically.

                    Our building became pet-friendly (after a battle that ended up with the creation of the Flat Chat newspaper column, all those years ago, funnily enough.) Pets are now a real social focus for people in the building who might otherwise not even greet each other.
                    However, the building management is absolutely ruthless when it comes to owners whose dogs are noisy or messy and who won’t so anything to fix it. Barking dogs (and their antisocial owners) are gone quicksmart.
                    Noisy stereos and TV cause more problems in strata buildings but you can’t ban them … just make sure their owners act responsibly.
                    Everything would be a lot easier if there was a way to warn prospective owners and tenants that while a building is ‘pet-friendly’, the EC is extremely noise, mess and smell unfriendly.
                    And I believe that buildings should be allowed to declare themselves pet-free for the many people who’d rather not live under the same roof as animals. But that has to be done right at the start – it’s not a horse you can easily change midstream.

                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                    #15206
                    Anonymous

                      JimmyT said:

                      I hear your pain, Sloan, but all of the problems you mention can be dealt with under by-laws that have nothing to with permission for pets specifically.

                      However, the building management is absolutely ruthless when it comes to owners whose dogs are noisy or messy and who won't so anything to fix it. Barking dogs (and their antisocial owners) are gone quicksmart.

                       

                      In a perfect world I would agree with you.

                      It is a rare occurance indeed in my experience to come across a building or complex so well managed it can stay on top of owners regarding pets. Most buildings can not even control the behaviour of their residents. Most buildings seem to muddle by year upon year barely staying on top of their responsibilities. I am glad in your building you have gotten it to work but it is not the common experience of most complexes that allow pets.

                       

                      I have usually found that the whole dog thing in most complexes begins 2 ways. With a request from someone on the EC to keep a dog or a family moves in with one without permission and permission is granted because no one wants to be the hard one to say no and it all snowballs from there.

                       

                      I lived in one building many years ago where they had very specific by laws in place about pets and it had what you could call a zero nuisance policy to placate the many objectors. It worked fine at first but as time passed and more and more pets came to live in this complex of 80 or so apartments it came to resemble a zoo more than a building for humans and it all started with just one little white dog and its owner who was good friends with the owner of the strata management firm.

                       

                      Lets say you have allow pets in a complex and one owner complains of the noise as she shares a common wall or corridor with a dog. The onus will fall on that person to prove that their reasonable enjoyment of their lot is affected and their quality of life has been affected. Much expense and inconvenience. It will not fall on the pet owner to prove otherwise. Now that occupant has all the noise and the trouble and inconvenience of the tribunal and EC to go through to just get back to the point they were at prior to the pet moving in next door. Fair?

                       

                      I think your building is the rare example of a strata that has made it work. For your one there will 99 buildings that are hell on earth because of pets.

                       

                      I have seen people sell their apartments because they could not live with the constant barking.

                      #15211
                      Freddie
                      Flatchatter

                        Further to my last post; in regards to “…it suggests we could also consider going ahead and getting the dog and make the owners committee pursue us through issuing a notice of non-compliance.”

                        Is another point to be considered that the Owners Committee instead of issuing a notice of non-compliance and going to mediatition could just undertake the issuing of a CTT Penalty Order?

                        If we were breaching the by-law by getting the dog without permission…if the Owners Committee instead of going with mediation issued the a CTT Penalty Order, would we have no opportunity to challenge the Owners Corp but except going to district court?  

                        #15212
                        Jimmy-T
                        Keymaster

                          The EC can’t issue a CTTT penalty order – only the CTTT can do that.

                          The EC can issue a Notice To Comply (with a by-law) and you can say,”we have complied with the by-law” which says permission can’t reasonably be refused. If they chose to pursue that through the CTTT, they have to prove that they are right and you are wrong.

                          For all it’s faults – and they are many and great – the CTTT is not a rubber stamp of EC ‘violation notices’.

                          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                          #15217
                          Anonymous

                            Hi Freddie and Biologynerd.

                             

                            A few quick quick questions for you both. What do you intend to do with your new pet when you are at work. Will the dog be home by itself all day? Do you think that is fair on a social animal like a dog as even smaller breeds need to be outside and being locked 8 hours a day minimum in an apartment is plain cruel.

                             

                            Oh, you intend to take it out every morning and evening for a walk don't you? Is that before or after dinner and tv?

                             

                            I can tell you both from my own miserable experiences with dog owners in neighbouring apartments that your good intentions wont last long. All the talk of highly training your animal will be just that, all talk. Your dog will go slowly mad due to being locked up every single day and will look to you for its socialisation every evening. It is cruel beyond belief putting a dog into an apartment and if you can not see that it is selfish of you to lock up an active creature all day every day I don't know what more I can say.

                             

                            Dogs are intelligent creatures that are evolved to run and hunt. Not sit in a small flat staring at 4 walls their whole lives waiting for their master to return home. It is selfish and cruel in the extreme.

                             

                            An imposition on your neighbours who just want to live quietly and a cruelty to the animal who  deserves better.

                            #15218
                            Jimmy-T
                            Keymaster

                              Sloan

                              You can't make assumptions about people's behaviour, even based on your own experiences. These guys are trying to do the right thing or they wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

                              But you do have a point about leaving dogs on their own.

                              Answer: Get two dogs!

                              The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                              #15220
                              Anonymous

                                Hi Jimmy, I have had what some may consider a lot of experience with dogs. I grew up around dogs. Some members of my family are dog breeders with many ribbons and medals etc from shows such as Crufts and obviously all the Aussie shows. I will not say what breeds as anyone who knows dogs would know who I am talking about right away.

                                 

                                I have handled dogs since I was a little boy including walking packs of dogs that would weigh up to 45kg each when I weighed only 60 kg or so myself. I have worked as an obedience trainer helping well meaning but utterly inept dog owners since I was 16 up until I finished Uni as I have always had a small aptitude for putting dogs in their place so to speak, which is by my side with me leading them and not the other way around.

                                 

                                Dogs even small breeds that so many think are suitable for apartment living need a lot of exercise. 3 times a day is what a responsible owner should be aiming for. If you are at work, a dog walker who is properly trained should do a midday walk for you and you should do a minimum of 45 mins preferably an hour or more morning and night. If you are not prepared to do that, get a cat. Nothing wrong with cats. Dogs love to walk and to work. They live to serve man, not be pampered, that is the reason mankind had them around. Not because they look cute or jump up on you when you arrive home, which by the way is a clearly dominant behaviour and is a major no no in training an obedient animal.

                                 

                                In reply to your specific remark to get 2 dogs, all that will do is put you even further down the pecking order in the pack and now you will have battles between the 2 dogs until one becomes dominant over the other, with all your mixed signals making you the inferior in the pack. If you were truly dominant over all your dogs you could have 10 dogs and it would not matter to them. They will do what they are instructed to do.

                                 

                                Lets say you have a little yapper that lashes out to defend his mommy when visitors to the house approach. A common enough scenario with many small dogs, right? Mom of course hugs little poochie close and says there there boy, mommy is safe, its all ok.

                                 

                                What just happened is that that irresponsible owner just reinforced that behaviour (snapping, biting and barking) with a reward (affection). The dog, small though it appears to you, actually thinks he is the pack leader and is defending his position in the pack against a newcomer (your visitor). It has nothing to do with defending you at all.

                                If that Chihuahua or w/e was replaced with lets say a Dobermann Pinscher it would not look so cute would it. Imagine a Dobe lashing out at a visitor to your home whereupon you hug the dog close and tell it that mummy is fine. Doesn't look like such wise behaviour now, does it.

                                That is exactly what happens with small dogs in apartments. They are treated like little cute animals when in fact they are a pack animal that needs to know its place in the order of things. It is cruel to have even a small dog in an apartment as it will more than likely be treated like a little cutey than what it is, a dog.

                                 

                                Small dogs are exactly like big dogs in how they behave but what we see as cute in a small dog like jumping up and “defending” his owner with growling and snapping is seen as frightening in a large dog and therein lies the biggest mistake that people make with dogs in an apartment or indeed just in general. All those “cute” behaviours are just the dog thinking he is leader of his pack and that means you and the other humans are now his inferior. Small dogs behave so appallingly because they are treated as the dominant animal by owners who have no idea what they should be doing.

                                 

                                A well trained dog should accept his master leaving for work without a murmur as he should be the follower and not the leader. The dogs that go crazy or howl when their owners leave them alone are going crazy because in their minds they are the leader of the pack and one of the lower ranked dogs in his pack i.e you, is leaving without permission. Humans though interpret that as sadness, when it is just frustration and anxiety about their role as leader creating stress and often anger.

                                 

                                I stand by what I have written. If you insist on owning a dog in an urban environment get obedience training for the dog and all members of your family. Training that teaches inane and humiliating tricks is nearly worthless. Dogs like to work and contribute to the pack they belong to i.e your family, and most importantly they like to have a structure where they are not the pack leader as it creates stress for them having to constantly defend their alpha position against humans who do not even understand pack behaviour.

                                One moment you let them take food right of your hand at the table which to a dog is tantamount to saying to them they are they pack leader as in a pack the leader eats first and disturbing the leader while he eats is a direct challenge to his position and then the next you are yelling at your dog to control it in some way. Is he the leader or are you? He doesn't know as he is getting constant mixed signals. In most households the dog is the alpha and right there is the problem.

                                 

                                I am not a dog hater, very far from it. I would have 2 or 3 dogs in a heartbeat if I lived in a suitable property and had the time to properly exercise and manage them.

                                 

                                I liked training dogs and I enjoy seeing well trained and obedient dogs that behave in the correct and natural way that is better for both master and dog which is submissive not dominant. Dogs are servants of man and just because they look “cute” we forget that these are animals whose original ancestor was the domesticated wolf, with all that that entails.

                                #15221
                                FlatChatFan
                                Flatchatter

                                  JimmyT said:

                                  Sloan

                                  You can’t make assumptions about people’s behaviour, even based on your own experiences. These guys are trying to do the right thing or they wouldn’t have asked the question in the first place.

                                  But you do have a point about leaving dogs on their own.

                                  Answer: Get two dogs!

                                  Jimmy, two cats keep themselves company, if they are not sleeping all day. Better for a unit if the owners do not have time to exercise dogs.

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